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The Creative Funding Show is a podcast for authors, YouTubers, and podcasters who want to fund the work they love. I’m your host Thomas Umstattd Jr., and with me today is Steve Olsher, who’s known for helping individuals and corporations get exceptionally clear on the one thing they were created to do. His no-holds-barred approach to life and business helps his clients achieve massive profitability while leading lives of purpose and contribution. He also runs the New Media Summit and hosts Reinvention Radio.
Is podcasting just a fad?
Thomas: You have a podcast, and the New Media Summit is specifically for podcasters. What would you say to people who think podcasting is just a fad?
Steve: I think there was a time when people questioned whether podcasting had staying power. It started in basements, so to speak, and some folks weren’t sure it would go mainstream. But that’s no longer the case.
Now that Wi-Fi is standard in cars, Apple CarPlay and Google CarPlay are more prevalent, and NPR and other major media outlets have podcast momentum, there’s no way podcasting is still a fad. It’s growing rapidly. In fact, I recently heard that, for the first time, podcast listenership has surpassed satellite radio, which is huge. That happened in the first quarter of 2018. So yes, podcasting is alive and well, and the fear that it’s a passing trend is behind us.
Thomas: I come from the terrestrial radio world. I used to host a radio show, and people have been predicting the death of radio for over 60 years. TV was supposed to kill it. Then 8-tracks and then cassette tapes. Yet radio’s still around. If radio can last, I think podcasting has an even longer road ahead.
Steve: I agree. In fact, I think podcasting may eventually lead to radio’s final demise. Having done interviews on both platforms for 20 years, I can say that most radio goes unheard, while most podcasts are actively chosen by listeners. Podcasting is a pull medium. People raise their hands and say, “I want that.” Nearly 100% of podcasts are listened to. It’s the opposite of traditional radio.
Why is podcasting better for measurement?
Thomas: There’s a reason I now have several podcasts and no longer do radio. Coming from the marketing world, I was used to measuring everything. With radio, you have no idea how many people are listening. They use clumsy methods like surveys or tracking devices, but it’s not precise.
With podcasting, you get much better data. YouTube is even more advanced. You can see exactly which second someone stopped watching. That transparency helps creators adapt more quickly to what their audience wants and improve their content.
Steve: I completely agree. We still have room to grow in podcasting when it comes to tracking and metrics. Some platforms are trying to improve that, but generally, when someone downloads your show, you don’t really know who they are. That’s one of the few downsides. Still, it’s far ahead of radio in terms of engagement and feedback.
Thomas: It’s one of the last anonymous things you can do online. A website knows everything about you, but when you download a podcast episode, all the host knows is your device type, app, and maybe a few more details. That’s it.
Do you need your own podcast to profit from podcasting?
Thomas: Let’s talk about the money side. Do people need to have their own podcast to make money from podcasting?
Steve: Not at all. We actually have a course called Profiting from Podcasts that focuses on monetizing the guest side of the equation. You can absolutely make money as a guest without having your own show.
That said, I’m a big advocate of starting your own podcast. As you get clearer about your topic of influence (that one area where you’re an expert and passionate) you’ll get better at articulating your message. The more shows you guest on, the more refined your message becomes.
For example, if you want to pitch our show, Reinvention Radio, which I’ve been doing since 2009 (and more consistently since 2015), you have to clearly communicate who you are, what you do, and the value you bring. That kind of clarity appeals to a specific group of people who are waiting for your expertise.
So yes, you can monetize your guest appearances, but many people who start as guests end up launching their own shows once they realize the potential and find their voice.
Thomas: It’s a great way to get started without investing in hosting, equipment, or building a website.
For authors or YouTubers, guesting on podcasts is a fantastic way to promote a book. As a listener, I buy a lot of books I hear about on podcasts, but only if there’s an audiobook. I’m not going to listen to your podcast and then read your book with my eyes. I want to listen to it on Audible. Podcast interviews can be very effective for building your platform and growing your audience.
Each podcast has its own community. Having your own podcast creates deep connections. People who listen regularly hear your voice for hours, but being a guest on many different shows gives you a much wider reach.
What makes podcasting so effective?
Steve: That’s exactly right. Because podcasting is a pull medium, listeners are actively choosing your content. No one is forcing it on them. They’re raising their hand and saying, “I want that.”
It’s similar to email marketing, where you have to consider open rates. Most emails are opened by only 10 to 20% of recipients. But podcasting is like having a 100% open rate, and even better, a 100% click-through rate. Listeners aren’t just opening something; they’re consuming the entire episode. That creates a very different relationship between the podcaster and the audience.
What’s the difference between push and pull media?
Thomas: Can you explain the difference between push and pull media? Those were popular terms a few years ago, and they’re still important, but I don’t hear people using them as much anymore.
Steve: Pull media includes things like podcasts, YouTube, and blogs. The consumer chooses what they want to consume, when they want to consume it, and on their preferred device. They “pull” it from you.
Push media, on the other hand, includes things like radio, TV, and newspapers. Listeners don’t choose what’s being broadcast. They either consume it or they don’t. The content is pushed out to everyone, whether they want it or not.
So with pull media, you have an opt-in experience. With push media, it’s more hit or miss. You’re sending the same message to a mass audience and hoping it resonates with some of them.
What makes push media less effective than pull media?
Thomas: The ultimate example of push media is something like direct mail or a billboard. Not only do you not control the content, but you don’t even control whether you receive it. It’s a more intrusive form of communication and harder to use persuasively.
Pull media takes longer to grow because people have to discover and choose it, but it’s much more effective in the long run.
How do you get booked as a podcast guest?
Steve: It starts with understanding the value you bring. Like push versus pull media, podcasting isn’t one-size-fits-all. Your message will naturally resonate more with certain audiences. So first, get really clear on what you talk about and what your topic of influence is.
Make sure you can speak in sound bites. Understand the needs of your audience. Have a system or structure you can share during interviews that provides real value. Know who you are, what you do, and how you help people.
Then find relevant shows. One of the easiest ways to do that is to identify the one- to four-word phrase that defines your area of expertise or your topic of influence, and use that as a keyword to search for shows that already focus on that subject.
Listen to those shows. Make sure they do interviews and that you’d enjoy being on the show. You want to pitch the right shows, and that means doing a little research.
Thomas: As someone who books a lot of guests, I always ask, “Why should I book you? Why would you be interesting to my audience?”
A podcast feed is an act of trust. Listeners get every episode. If they get a couple of boring ones, they’re tempted to unsubscribe. There are dozens of other podcasts on nearly every topic. When we started Novel Marketing back in 2013, we were the only podcast focused on fiction marketing. Now there are genre-specific marketing podcasts, so it’s gotten very niche.
We protect that trust. I’m always asking, “Is this guest experienced? Will this be interesting?” If you can clearly articulate your value, it makes me far more likely to book you.
Why is it a privilege to be a podcast guest?
Steve: From the guest’s perspective, being invited onto a podcast is a privilege. It’s a relationship you need to honor. The host may have spent years building trust with that audience.
To be handed the microphone and invited to speak to that audience is an honor. Unfortunately, some people don’t see it that way, and that catches up with them. If you want to be a guest, approach it with humility and respect.
Thomas: At the very least, if you’re just getting started, listen to the podcast you’re pitching. Make sure you’re a good fit. When I do pitch myself to other shows, it’s only after listening and thinking, “This topic fits well with what they’re doing.”
It’s also about respecting that trust between the host and their audience.
Steve: Exactly. Sure, you could probably talk in a way that benefits any audience. Most smart people can. But if it’s the right message and the wrong audience, it still won’t land well in the long run.
How do you maximize your time as a guest?
Thomas: Once you start getting booked, maybe on some smaller shows to get practice, how do you make the most of that time? You obviously don’t want to spend the whole interview pitching. That’s a fast way to get cut from the episode. So what’s the sweet spot?
Steve: I’ve been a guest on over 500 shows in the past three years, and I also host my own podcast. To me, it’s all about teaching and adding value.
Focus on giving listeners something they can walk away with. I suggest dedicating 98% of the interview to sharing value like strategies, tips, and frameworks. Only 1 to 2% should be self-promotion or calls to action.
Unfortunately, many guests don’t follow that 98/2 rule. They spend too much time being self-serving or veering off-topic. But if you focus on teaching, the audience will want to learn more from you.
Thomas: I listen to over 50 podcasts, and if a guest starts pitching too early or too often, I skip ahead or stop listening altogether. They lose the opportunity to make an impact.
One of our best guests on Novel Marketing created a free guide specifically for our audience. It tied directly to the episode’s topic. She mentioned it once or twice, gave the link, and that was it. People flooded her with signups. She didn’t pitch a product; she offered value in exchange for an email address, which started a relationship. It was powerful and impressive. I’ll admit, when I’m a guest, I don’t prepare that thoroughly.
Steve: The more shows you do, the easier it gets, and the more tempted you are to get lazy. But it’s a good reminder for me, too. I should treat each interview like it’s my first and prep accordingly.
How do you simplify podcast scheduling?
Thomas: When you said you did 500 podcast interviews in the last couple of years, some people fell out of their seats. They’re wondering how on earth you schedule that many shows?
Having booked you myself, I know your secret. I use Calendly to schedule guests for this show, but you were the first guest I’ve had who had his own Calendly link for booking interview times. I thought, “Wow, this is cool.” So what is Calendly, and how do you use it to keep all your interviews from colliding?
Steve: Calendly.com is a tool that connects with your calendar and allows people to book time with you. I have several options for 20-minute calls for coaching clients and hour-long slots for interviews. It syncs with my calendar, and I try to schedule everything on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays.
Coordinating schedules without a tool like this can be a nightmare. I use Calendly both for private clients and for podcast hosts to book time with me, usually within those three days.
Thomas: It’s amazing. I love Calendly because when someone books a slot, it appears on my Google Calendar and blocks that time. I can set buffer times before and after appointments, and if I add anything manually to my calendar, it blocks that off in Calendly too.
This prevents double-booking, and I can send the same link to a dozen people without worrying about overlap. Compare that to the old-fashioned way of emailing back and forth, saying, “Can you do 2:00 on Tuesday?” “No, how about 4:00 on Thursday?” Calendly turns a 15-minute email exchange into a 30-second interaction.
I’ve even connected Calendly with TextExpander, so I can type “-coffee” and instantly send a personalized link for coffee meetings. It’s one of the best quality-of-life tools I use. We’re not sponsored by Calendly; I’m just a fan.
What is a joint venture?
Thomas: I want to switch gears and talk about joint ventures. This is one of the most effective ways podcasters and YouTubers can monetize. What is a joint venture, and how would a creator get into one?
Steve: “Joint venture” can mean a lot of different things to different people. I define it as a partnership where someone with an audience (a blog, podcast, YouTube channel, or email list) introduces that audience to a product, program, or service they believe in.
If someone from that audience buys the product, the promoter earns a commission. For example, when we launched Profiting from Podcasts in April 2018, most of our sales came through joint venture partners promoting our program to their audiences.
In that two-week window, we added about 22,000 subscribers to our list and had a few hundred enrollments in the training. Around 60% of those sales paid commissions to partners.
Thomas: I recently did a joint venture for K-lytics, which is a Kindle analytics tool that helps indie authors find popular but less competitive Amazon categories. It’s super niche, but very relevant to our Novel Marketing audience.
We mentioned it on the podcast, sent a couple of emails, and hosted a webinar. That combination was incredibly effective. In this case, I was on the promotional side, helping spread the word. You were the creator, partnering with others to promote your program.
It was a win-win. Often, the people who are great at creating products don’t have large audiences, and the people who’ve built audiences don’t have time to create high-quality products. So joint ventures are a perfect fit.
But like you said, it has to be something valuable to your audience. You can’t just think, “Mattresses are high-margin. Everyone sleeps. I should promote mattresses.” That won’t work unless you have a sleep podcast!
Steve: I work both sides of that coin. I create products for others to promote, but I also promote offerings I think will benefit my audience. I know I’m not the solution to every problem, so if I come across something that is, I’ll share it.
How can creators find joint venture partners?
Thomas: Many of our listeners are YouTubers. Joint ventures could be a great opportunity even if they don’t have a podcast. So how do creators find joint venture partners?
Steve: It’s a bit of a tight-knit world. Some call it “incestuous” because many people in the affiliate marketing space promote one another. John promotes Jay, Jay promotes Sally, Sally promotes John, but it’s in a good way. It’s a rising tide that lifts all boats.
To find products or services worth promoting, start with your own email inbox. You’ve probably received emails promoting someone else’s offer. That’s one way to identify opportunities.
You can also check affiliate marketplaces. ShareASale and ClickBank are good examples. These platforms offer hundreds of affiliate programs. But unless affiliate marketing is already part of your revenue model, that may not be the best fit.
The best and fastest way to find solid joint venture partners is to talk to your peers. Ask them, “What products or services are you promoting that are producing good results?” That peer-to-peer recommendation is often more valuable than anything you’ll find in a directory.
Why are in-person relationships so valuable for joint ventures?
Thomas: That was a very humble answer, but let me tell our listeners the real secret to how top people do it: they build in-person relationships at conferences. That leads us perfectly into your event, the New Media Summit.
I appreciate that you didn’t try to promote your summit, but I will say that most of the joint ventures I’ve done started from relationships I formed at conferences. Sometimes I meet someone who introduces me to someone else, and we form a mastermind group, which leads to referrals.
Let’s be honest, there are some really sketchy people in the joint venture world. They don’t have a good product, they can’t sell it on their own, and they’re just looking to borrow your credibility. The best way to protect yourself is to meet people in real life or have someone you trust vouch for them. Someone who can say, “Yeah, Joe’s product is great, and my audience loved it.”
If you are going to use affiliate marketplaces like ShareASale, you really need to go through the product yourself or do your due diligence. Never violate the trust of your audience. That’s your most valuable asset.
What is the New Media Summit?
Steve: You’re absolutely right. The best way to develop real relationships is to meet people in person. Everyone I promote is someone I know personally. There’s not a single person I introduce to my email list that I don’t know, like, and vouch for. In most cases, I’m good friends with them. I believe in them and in their offerings.
The New Media Summit is a great place to meet awesome people from all over the world. For those unfamiliar with it, it’s a unique event. We bring in 40 top podcasters and give a relatively small group of 150 attendees the opportunity to learn from them, share meals, hang out, even dance together.
The highlight is that every attendee gets to pitch the podcasters directly. You introduce who you are and what you do, and if it’s a good fit, you can literally get booked on the spot.
Over the course of a few days, people really get to know each other. Since launching the event in 2017, I’ve had the privilege of hearing so many amazing stories from attendees. People share in vulnerable and inspiring ways that you wouldn’t expect in a public forum. It creates an extraordinary bond.
We foster an environment of authenticity and transparency. We want attendees to feel comfortable being themselves, sharing what they know, and making real connections with each other and the podcasters as well. That kind of realness is exactly what podcasters look for in their guests.
Thomas: The New Media Summit isn’t the only conference where you can meet people, but it is one of the only conferences where you can meet me.
I’ll be there with the specific goal of booking guests for this show and for my other podcasts. I’m on a bit of a podcast-creation binge right now, so I may have more by the time we get there.
A simple way to start building relationships is to attend local meetup groups on your topic. You can find those at meetup.com.
Connect with Steve Olsher
- Steve Olsher Courses
- Reinvention Radio on Apple Podcasts
- Reinvention Radio on Spotify
Steve Olsher is famous for helping individuals and corporations become exceptionally clear on their WHAT – that is, the ONE thing they were created to do – his practical, no-holds-barred approach to life and business propels his clients and presentation attendees towards achieving massive profitability while cultivating lives of purpose, conviction, and contribution.
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