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This is the Creative Funding Show, a podcast for authors, YouTubers, and podcasters who want to fund the work they love. I’m Thomas Umstattd, Jr., and with me today is Bryan Cohen, the dashingly handsome co-host of the Sell More Books Show.
Bryan helps authors sell more books and make more money by helping them write better book descriptions and market their books more effectively. His podcast is one of the most popular in the publishing world.
Thomas: Bryan, you’ve been on Patreon for almost two years now, so why did you start the Sell More Books Show?
Bryan: It was at a time when I really wanted to use some of my skills that weren’t being used in my book writing. I have a background in theater, improv, and comedy, and I love connecting with people through audio. I had done voiceover and video work before, but I didn’t have an outlet for it.
The story of the show is that Jim Kukral, my co-host, was looking for someone to join him. I barely knew him, but I saw his posts on social media. I knew he had an audience from his Author Marketing Club service, so I said, “Hey, I’d be interested.” We had a short interview, and I came up with the idea for the format of delivering the news.
Lo and behold, we’re now at episode 223. We’ve never missed a week. Sometimes one of us takes a break, but the show itself has run for 223 consecutive weeks.
Why did you focus on indie publishing?
Thomas: Your news-and-commentary format could work well in so many other industries. There are a lot of political news podcasts, but not many focused on news in specific professional niches. Yet there are hundreds of industries that could support vibrant, profitable shows like yours.
You do a great job covering publishing news, especially indie publishing. Why did you decide to focus on indie authors?
Bryan: Part of it was that Jim and I both had more experience in the indie world. While Jim had a traditionally published book, he didn’t have a great experience with it, and that perspective influenced our early episodes. I’ve never been traditionally published.
So it was really “podcast what you know.” Indie publishing was our world. Our show became a niche within a niche. It was about indie publishing for people who actually want to know what’s going on.
That hyper-focus has been great for our businesses. Plus, having to report on industry news each week keeps us constantly learning.
How does the podcast support your business?
Thomas: Let’s talk business. You use your podcast to promote what you do. Walk us through how that works.
Bryan: We had been podcasting for about a year when I launched my main business in May 2015, which is a done-for-you book description service called Best Page Forward.
At the time, I didn’t have much of an email list. My only real audience was the podcast, so I promoted the business there. We didn’t do a hard pitch. I just explained what it was and sent details to our podcast email list, which was maybe up to a thousand people.
In the first 60 days, I had over 100 orders. Our listeners immediately said, “Yes, this is what I need. I hate writing book descriptions.”
Since then, we’ve used the podcast to promote other services, webinars, and sales. We even launched a live conference based on the podcast.
Thomas: That’s such a smart approach. Instead of building a product and then looking for an audience, you built the audience first, then asked, “What do these people need?”
For example, a lot of authors would rather write a whole new book than write a two-paragraph sales pitch for the one they’ve already written, so you created a service to solve that problem.
When your audience is willing to fly in to meet you in person at a live conference, you know you’ve built something real. Those in-person events really strengthen the community.
Bryan: Absolutely. It deepens the relationship. When listeners hear your voice, they already feel like they know you. Podcasting is powerful like that.
But then they meet you in person, shake your hand, and have a drink with you. That takes it to another level. These are your potential “true fans,” that people always talk about.
How do you get listeners to comment?
Thomas: Podcasting is just so intimate. Unlike YouTube, it’s often created and consumed in solitude. It’s someone’s voice in your ears while you’re driving or working out. It forms a bond.
But podcasts don’t get a lot of comments. Listeners tend to move on after an episode, and they’re not always in a place to engage. Yet you’ve done something special. Your podcast has one of the most active comment sections I’ve seen. How do you get people to engage like that?
Bryan: We’re really proud of that. I talked with Joanna Penn, and she said she was a bit jealous of our engagement. She actually adapted her podcast and made a whole Twitter campaign based on what we do.
Each week, we ask a “question of the week” related to one of our top news stories. It’s always an open-ended question. We invite listeners to leave a comment with their response.
What’s fun is that people don’t just reply; they also respond to each other. It’s turned into a community. We learn a lot from the comments, too.
We also offer a giveaway. Every week, we do a random drawing from those who comment. It’s usually for something we already sell, so it’s a natural and effective cross-promotion.
Thomas: It’s a smart system. The giveaway gives you an easy way to promote something you’re already doing, and the question of the week sparks real conversation.
YouTubers often use a similar tactic. They’ll start with a question of the day to get comments going. Sometimes they set guidelines like “no spoilers” to manage the discussion.
It’s fascinating to see how creators build engagement, and I think you’ve done an excellent job.
Why did you start using Patreon?
Thomas: In terms of how you’re monetizing the podcast, you’re creating products, services, and events for your listeners, but you’re also on Patreon. In fact, you’ve been on Patreon for over three years, so you were early to the Patreon bandwagon. Why did you start using Patreon?
Bryan: At first, we really just wanted to dip our toes in the water. It was a new service at the time. I like to refer to it as “ongoing Kickstarter.” We wanted to see if we could give some small rewards to our listeners and use that to help fund the show.
Probably 80 to 90% of the money we make from Patreon goes right back into the show. It helps us gather content every week. We pay a contractor to help us find the news and tips. It’s been really helpful in covering the costs of the show, and it proved that if we offered rewards, people would contribute.
Why did you choose the per-episode model?
Thomas: You picked a per-episode model. There are two ways to use Patreon: per month or per episode. What was your thinking behind choosing per episode?
Bryan: From a business standpoint, if you have a small amount coming in per episode and you release four episodes a month, it adds up. We’ve had people paying $3 per episode over the course of a year, and it ends up being a really nice amount. People are happy to pay it, and when everyone contributes together, it becomes substantial.
What are your Patreon reward tiers?
Thomas: You’ve kept your tiers simple with a $1 tier and a $3 tier. What do you offer in the $1 tier?
Bryan: In the $1 tier, authors get their book listed on our website. After they’ve been a patron for six months, we also send them a couple of free courses. We offer the additional benefits to encourage retention and give people a reason to stay with us on Patreon.
Thomas: How do you manage that? How do you know when someone has been a patron for six months?
Bryan: We go by total dollar amount. We check our Patreon account regularly. For example, if someone is contributing $1 per episode, that’s about $4 a month. After six months, they’ve contributed roughly $24. When we see that they’ve passed that amount, we send them the reward. Sometimes we batch it and send it to everyone who’s crossed that threshold. It’s very manageable.
Thomas: So technically, someone could donate more and reach that threshold faster. There’s no way for you to know if they’ve gamed the system, but I guess it doesn’t really matter, since the goal is that they put in a certain number of dollars.
Bryan: Yeah, we don’t mind if people game the system by paying more. That’s not really a problem.
Thomas: Gaming the system by giving you more money isn’t really a bug. It’s a feature.
Bryan: Exactly. We win that game.
What’s included in the $3 tier?
Thomas: Your next level is $3 per episode. What’s included at that tier?
Bryan: This is the fun one. We actually read their book description aloud on the show and link to it in our show notes. People love hearing their books promoted on the podcast. This was Jim’s idea, and I think it was his best idea for the Sell More Books Show. People really wanted to hear their books mentioned and shared.
We’ve received great feedback. In addition to everything from the $1 level, $3 patrons also get the courses a little earlier. After they’ve been members for a certain amount of time, they get even more perks, including a custom book description from Best Page Forward, a membership to Author Marketing Club, and so on. They get the best of everything at that level.
Thomas: You also do a great job of motivating people to stay members, because a lot of these rewards are time-based. I’ve heard that tip from folks at Patreon, so it’s a pro tip.
When you look at the reward structures used by people who work at Patreon, many of them are time-based, like yours. Patreon is even working on features that will make time-based reward delivery more automatic. Soon, you might be able to set up scripts to email rewards once someone hits a milestone. That would save you the manual work.
Why don’t you have a premium, higher-tier level?
Bryan: As you’ve pointed out before, this isn’t our primary focus. We’ve shifted a lot of our focus to our live event in Chicago, which we now do annually. We could definitely add a couple more bells and whistles, but it’s important to choose a focus when monetizing your show.
For us, that focus has been our businesses. Jim promotes his Happy Book Reviews service, and I promote Best Page Forward. Those are our primary revenue sources.
I love Patreon and I’m happy with its steady earnings, but I’ve made more money and seen a better return on investment from Best Page Forward, so that’s where I’ve focused. There are lots of monetization options, and you do a great job of sharing them on this podcast, but if someone tries to do everything, they’ll go crazy and waste time and money. The key is to find one primary source of income and focus on it.
Thomas: That’s a good way to look at it. Patreon is a tool, but it doesn’t have to be the tool. For you, it helps the podcast break even. It covers expenses and maybe adds a little extra, but it’s not what pays the rent or mortgage.
What advice do you have for podcasters who want to monetize?
Thomas: What advice would you give a podcaster who wants to increase their monetization, whether through Patreon or another method?
Bryan: It depends on the podcast type, but if you’re considering starting a business that aligns with your audience and offers something your listeners would want, then test it out. See if your podcast listeners and email subscribers are interested in what you offer.
If they are, then as your podcast grows, your business will grow with it. That’s been the case for both Jim and me.
Thomas: That’s really good. Being willing to think outside the box is key.
One more thing I want to mention for people who haven’t listened to the Sell More Books Show: your show is not just a 40-minute advertisement for Best Page Forward or Happy Book Reviews. Those services might get mentioned two or three times in an hour-long episode.
That’s important. You can’t build a community or a following with a 30-minute commercial. The show itself has to provide real value.
What’s brilliant about a news show is that each week you have fresh content to cover. It gives you natural ways to mention your business without sounding salesy.
Bryan: Absolutely. We stumbled into that format, but it’s really helped build trust in the community. People tag us on Facebook and say, “I can’t wait to hear what Jim and Bryan have to say about this.” The show almost fuels itself now.
How can news podcasts create industry influence?
Thomas: They help do your research for you!
One of the first shows I saw that did this well was back in 2006 or 2007. A college graduate started a short podcast on news in the green energy industry. He covered green energy, fracking, petroleum, and whatever was happening that day. It was just a four- or five-minute news summary, released daily.
That guy got snatched up quickly into a high-paying job because he became the foremost voice in the space. Mainstream media only covers the energy industry occasionally, but he was covering the nitty-gritty.
With just a $50 microphone, he became the voice of that industry. That’s the power of this format, and we need more micro-news sources like that.
Just going through the news every week builds real expertise. You start seeing long-term trends. You can say, “Amazon has done things like this before. We talked about this last year and the year before.” That kind of insight doesn’t come from shortcuts; it’s earned over time.
Connect with Bryan Cohen
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