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This is the Creative Funding Show, a podcast for authors, YouTubers, and podcasters who want to fund the work they love without selling out. I’m Thomas Umstattd Jr., and with me today is Bremner Morris. He’s the head of Patreon’s Creator Partnerships and Creator Success Teams. He helps creators join the platform and become more successful once they get on Patreon.
What is Patreon?
Bremner: Patreon is a membership platform for artists and creators to get paid by their most loyal fans. What I mean by that is artists and creators can use Patreon to engage with their audience on a monthly, recurring basis. They establish a membership fee with those fans by offering them something exclusive and unique as part of that membership campaign. Today, we have about 70,000 creators on the platform, processing about 150 million payments a year. To date, we’ve processed about 300 million payments back to creators. So it’s pretty exciting.
Thomas: It’s very exciting, especially when you consider 150 million a year and 300 million total. That means the growth curve is up and to the right quite a bit.
How many new creators are joining the platform on a given week?
Bremner: We’re adding hundreds of creators per week. We have a lot of folks who join the platform just to test it out. But we also have many who join and see significant outcomes because they have a very established fan base. Patreon is really for folks who have an established fan base. They’re simply converting their most loyal audience into paying subscribers.
Thomas: If no one knows who you are, Patreon is not going to help very much.
Bremner: We have an internal term that says we’re not for the “zero to fan” problem, we’re for the “fan to member” problem.
Thomas: I’ve noticed that many people are surprised by how much their most loyal fans are willing to give. There’s a curve, and at the top are a few fans who would happily give you hundreds of dollars a month, sometimes without even wanting the rewards. That’s the big surprise. You put together these amazing perks, yet some fans never even send you their mailing address. I’ve heard creators say, “Yeah, I reached out, and they replied, but they didn’t care about the rewards. They just wanted to support me.”
Creators who aren’t using something like Patreon are leaving money on the table. If you’re an author just selling books, your most passionate fan and your most casual fan both pay the same $10. But that passionate fan wants more. They want a deeper connection with you, so you just have to give them the opportunity.
Bremner: There are probably two motivations for a patron to sign up. One is a support motivation. Patrons really love what you do and want to continue supporting your craft so you can make it a sustainable lifestyle. The other side of the coin is a benefits-oriented patron. Patrons sign up because of the exclusive benefits they get for being a member. Interestingly, these motivations merge over time. We’ve seen that folks who sign up as support-oriented patrons tend to migrate toward being more benefits-oriented, and those who sign up for extra episodes or exclusive merchandise begin to feel great about supporting creators they love.
The average patron spends about $12 on the platform, which is more than a typical subscription to a music or video service. Some creators offer benefit tiers in the thousands of dollars and have patrons converting at that rate.
Thomas: It’s remarkable. You spend $10 for Spotify, and it’s split among tens of thousands of songs. Whereas if you’re spending $12 on Patreon, it’s probably split between five or six creators. That’s a much bigger piece of the pie. If I’m an artist on Spotify, any given listener may be giving me a few pennies. On Patreon, I could be getting a few dollars from that same listener.
What’s the best way for a creator to speak to both motivations?
Thomas: So what’s the best way for a creator to speak to both motivations? I often see creators who are really good at saying, “Help me do this,” and others who are great at saying, “Look at these amazing rewards.” What’s the best way to do both?
Bremner: First, creators need to understand the motivations of their audience. Some audiences are really support-oriented, others are more benefits-oriented, and some are a mix. We advise creators to take a step back when launching their membership program and think about their audience’s motivation. If they’re unsure, they can ask their audience directly to understand what drives them.
Thomas: A great way to do this is through a contest. Everyone enters the contest by giving you their email address, and the winners get to have a conversation with you. This builds your email list and gives you qualitative research as you chat with your fans.
Bremner: We have a survey we’ve been sending to creators that they can use with their audience to understand those motivations. Right now, we’re just piloting it, but we hope to offer it publicly on our website soon. We’re revamping our education materials and investing more in a comprehensive guide to using Patreon. So stay tuned.
How do you connect with reward-based supporters?
Thomas: That’s how you connect with cause-based folks. What about for more reward-based folks?
Bremner: Once you understand your audience’s motivations, the next step is to highlight the benefits of membership.
For a support-oriented fan, focus on what their backing means to you. Explain how their participation helps you maintain a sustainable, independent creative career and how their ongoing support fuels your work.
For a benefits-oriented fan, focus on what they get in return for their membership dollars, like exclusive merchandise, bonus episodes, or whatever fits your brand. Frame it as a value-for-value exchange by saying, “At this tier, you get X; at the next tier, you get X plus Y.”
And rather than talking about Patreon directly, connect it to something they already know. Call it a membership, like a gym, or a subscription tied to their credit card.
Thomas: It allows you to buy all the things that you buy.
Bremner: Exactly. And credit cards have benefits. Most people understand, “Hey, I’m going to fork over $12 a month in exchange for something in return.”
Creators must realize that what they’re offering is valuable. Many creators are uncomfortable “asking for money,” but really, they’re asking for fair value in exchange for what they contribute to the world.
You’re assigning a dollar value to your work. That value should reflect both how much your fan base values it and how much time, energy, and emotion you’ve invested.
Thomas: Your patrons are actually helping you create whatever it is you’re making. If you create an amazing animated video on YouTube, someone who donates gets to feel like, “I helped make that possible.”
Maybe they can’t do what you do as the artist, but they can still feel a sense of ownership, and that’s powerful.
One of my clients started creating a little wall with bricks on it, putting her patrons’ names on the bricks. It’s straight out of university fundraising, where they build a new library and put donors’ names on a brick for $1,000. People love that. They love knowing they contributed, even in a small way. Maybe it’s a million dollars to have the library named after you, but it’s only a few hundred to get a brick with your name.
Why does recurring income matter for creators?
Bremner: Having an ongoing, sustainable stream of income truly enables creative independence.
Creators, whether musicians, authors, podcasters, or video creators, have often had to pander to sponsors, ad dollars, or distribution platforms like YouTube or Spotify. That means tailoring their content to algorithms instead of focusing on creating meaningful, quality content for their loyal fans.
The ongoing relationship with fans is key. First, it gives predictability for the creator. Second, it empowers independent creation that appeals to your most dedicated audience.
Thomas: And it helps smooth out the lumpiness of income. I’m primarily from the author world, and authors experience the worst lumpy income.
Even successful traditionally published authors might receive just three checks a year. Those checks can be large, but authors need discipline not to blow it all. I’ve talked to agents whose clients make plenty of money, but because it doesn’t come in consistently, they struggle with debt and need advances.
That’s one reason I was excited about Patreon when I discovered it back in 2014. I’d seen Kickstarter in action. You might run a Kickstarter for season six of your podcast and get all your money at the beginning. But that means you’d better have done a great job budgeting.
Patreon can provide a steadier income, plus you still get to keep those “lumps” from book sales.
In fact, people who buy a book through Patreon are usually paying more for it because they’re not coming for a deal. If they wanted a bargain, they’d go to Spotify or YouTube. Patreon is for your most passionate fans. It reduces anxiety. Maybe you’re not making tons on Patreon, but just knowing the rent or mortgage is covered next month lets you take creative risks.
Bremner: We see Patreon, or membership in general, as your core sustaining income stream. It doesn’t have to be Patreon, but a recurring membership is like a paycheck.
Other opportunities, like book deals or sponsorships, are those bonus bumps. They’re wonderful, but inconsistent.
The nice thing about Patreon is that we’re not an exclusive platform. We won’t prevent you from doing other things. Our mission is to help creators get paid, and we believe that starts with sustainable income so you can confidently pursue your craft.
How is Patreon different from Kickstarter?
Bremner: We don’t really see Kickstarter as a competitor. It’s an additive income stream for creators who need a single influx of cash.
Kickstarter is built for one-time campaigns. Patreon is designed for ongoing support. With Kickstarter, your audience shows up for a single project, and then you have to re-engage them with a whole new campaign next time. That’s tough.
We’ve seen creators run a Kickstarter for a big up-front project, then transition that audience into a membership model. Patreon is about forming a contract with your fans. Yes, it takes investment and responsibility, but it can be more fruitful long-term.
It also allows you to offer more compelling rewards, because you’re thinking in terms of a lifetime value, not just a one-off transaction.
Thomas: It doesn’t matter how high-quality your shirts are if people only buy them once. But if you want them to buy the 2018 and 2019 shirts, their experience has to be great.
It’s easier to get people excited about a Kickstarter because it’s for a limited time, but it’s also exhausting. After a Kickstarter campaign, creators often need a whole month to recover. It’s so much energy packed into such a short window. It’s like harvesting crops before the rain. You don’t know when the rain will come, so you work like crazy.
Patreon is more like a greenhouse. It’s a consistent, slower-paced effort over time and less pressure each month.
Why is subscription the future of creative income?
Bremner: If you think about how the world is moving, most services are becoming subscription-based. We believe that art and creativity will follow.
Platforms like YouTube and podcasts are already serialized and recurring. Our membership model aligns well with how those creators release content.
Other categories, like musicians, authors, and fine artists, tend to work toward single moments in time. But we’re seeing a shift. Many creators are transitioning their craft and fan engagement toward ongoing subscriptions.
It’s not just happening in the creator economy. It’s everywhere. I now have a subscription to United Wi-Fi.
Thomas: When I was a kid, I bought Photoshop. Now I subscribe to Photoshop.
Bremner: Exactly. And the hope is that, for your fans, it’s a smaller amount of money each month but a more valuable ongoing relationship.
Is Patreon reviving the short story?
Thomas: I’ve noticed in the author space that Patreon is bringing back the short story. In the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, you had magazines full of short stories. Readers bought them, and writers got paid.
Then the internet came along and basically killed the short story. You had the occasional anthology, but most writers couldn’t earn from short stories. As a craft, it really declined, which was sad, because the format allows for powerful storytelling.
Sometimes the short film before a Pixar movie is just as moving as the full-length feature. You’re sitting there crying, thinking, “Why did you do this to me, Pixar?”
My wife and I actually have a print of the volcano love story from one of those shorts hanging in our house. We both love it. It’s incredibly emotional, and it didn’t take an hour and a half to tell. That’s what’s so powerful about short-form storytelling.
Lately, I’ve noticed more authors are looking for something they can offer their readers each month. While they’re working on their big epic fantasy novels, they’re also writing short stories along the way. It’s great for honing their craft, and thanks to subscriptions, they’re actually getting paid for those short stories. It’s a fantastic reward for both readers and writers.
It’s interesting to see how trends come and go. Pulp fiction was huge in the 1920s when paperbacks made books cheap and accessible. Then it faded away. Now, with Kindle and digital publishing, pulp fiction is making a big comeback. There’s a whole movement of writing fast and publishing often. Some readers will devour 100 books a year and want to binge all 20 books in a series.
It’s fun to watch that pendulum swing, and right now, Patreon seems to be in a good place within that cycle.
How can creators engage fans beyond their core craft?
Bremner: Your fan base is supporting you as an artist, and there are things you do beyond your specific craft that can be compelling to your audience. A great example is from the music world. Some musicians share behind-the-scenes content, whether it’s in the studio, on tour, or just hanging out with friends. That inside scoop on who they are as artists is really compelling to their most loyal fans.
Another example is Mickey Kendall, a writer I spoke with. She started posting recipes for obscure dishes on Twitter. Her audience responded, saying they wanted more. It’s not directly related to her writing, but it excited and engaged her audience, and it’s become a significant driver of her ongoing connection with them.
When we consult with creators, we help identify activities that may be slightly outside their core craft but still offer their fans new, compelling ways to engage.
How is the Patreon relationship different from Kickstarter?
Bremner: This goes back to the Kickstarter comparison. We see Patreon not just as a membership platform, but as a relationship between the creator and their fans that travels with them across the internet.
That might mean offering a reward like a private page on your website, a chat server like Discord, or a livestream. These are digitally fulfilled rewards that deepen engagement. And they don’t necessarily have to happen on Patreon.com. These kinds of ongoing experiences wouldn’t really work through a one-time campaign like Kickstarter. You wouldn’t run a Kickstarter just to offer a single livestream, for example.
Thomas: And then you’re stuck doing a lot of traffic copying, figuring out who paid and who didn’t. It’s a hassle. It’s the same problem coworking spaces have with day passes. They need someone to check at the door.
YouTube is rolling out its own version of a subscription platform. How is that different from Patreon?
How does Patreon compare to YouTube’s subscription offering?
Bremner: We’re actually excited that YouTube is starting to think about how to help creators get paid. That’s part of our mission. We’ve influenced the market to recognize that subscription services have value.
The key difference is that many creators don’t see themselves as “YouTubers.” They see themselves as creators who distribute through YouTube, alongside Twitch, blogs, Discord, and other platforms. YouTube’s subscription only works within its ecosystem.
We believe your fan base should move with you across the internet. Creators want their fans to have one pass that works across all platforms. Also, many creators are hesitant about YouTube’s motives. They don’t necessarily want all engagement to be locked into one platform.
Thomas: This isn’t YouTube’s first attempt. Remember the tip jar? Nobody used it. Tip jars online rarely work.
We created a WordPress plugin with a free version and a premium upgrade. You could donate to support the free version, but in the plugin’s entire history, despite being used on thousands of websites, we’ve made about $5 in donations. That model just doesn’t work.
I’m curious to see if YouTube’s new subscription button will take off. If people want to help creators, they should sign up for YouTube Red. A view from a YouTube Red subscriber is far more valuable than the fraction of a cent from an ad that gets skipped after 15 seconds. But people are still hesitant to pay $10 or $12 a month, even though it’s not that expensive.
Bremner: The value proposition is muddled. It’s hard for fans to understand what they’re getting and how it supports the artist. Also, within YouTube, there’s a lack of clarity about whether subscriptions or ad revenue are the company’s priority.
Thomas: Oh, it’s definitely advertising. YouTube is owned by Alphabet, which is basically Google. Their entire business model is built on dominating the ad market. And they’re really good at it.
As a podcaster, I sometimes envy YouTube’s monetization system. In podcasting, you need a sponsor who inserts a static ad into your MP3. Everyone hears the same ad.
On YouTube, though, it’s totally dynamic. Visit Casper’s website once, and for the next 30 days, you’ll see Casper ads everywhere, no matter what video you’re watching. Their ad tracking is powerful. Honestly, I don’t think anyone will ever beat Google at advertising. Maybe Facebook, but I’d bet on Google.
Bremner: I was trying to be politically correct and give them the benefit of the doubt, that maybe they are investing in subscriptions. But that’s part of the problem. Subscriptions are an ancillary offering for them.
They only started rolling this out because they saw a market need: creators want ongoing relationships with their fans.
You’re right, YouTube does advertising well for itself. That’s why Patreon exists. Our CEO, Jack, was a YouTube creator. His videos had millions of views, but he only made a few hundred dollars in ad revenue. YouTube is great at serving up ads to viewers and making money for advertisers, but it’s not great at paying creators.
We’ve seen a lot of creators move to Patreon because of demonetization. Some have 12 million YouTube subscribers and still can’t make ends meet. They used to earn $20,000 to $40,000 a month in ad revenue, but a change in the algorithm can flip that switch overnight.
Patreon exists so creators don’t have to depend on an algorithm. We give them the infrastructure to engage with their fans on their own terms.
How does Patreon handle political diversity and free expression?
Thomas: That’s something a lot of people worry about, especially in the middle of the country. There’s this sense that tech companies on the coasts have very specific political views, and if you don’t share those views, they might cut off your income. That’s scary. You feel powerless when Facebook stops showing your posts or YouTube demonetizes you.
How does Patreon navigate that? You’re based in San Francisco. I imagine there’s not a lot of political diversity there. Am I wrong?
Bremner: Two things. First, our brand promise is that we will not come between creators and their fans. One of our core internal values is being creator-first. We build tools to help creators connect with their audience.
From our perspective, creators can span the entire political spectrum. If they have an audience and want to use our infrastructure, more power to them, regardless of their political beliefs.
Now, we do have content guidelines. We draw the line at hate speech and certain adult content. But overall, we’re an open platform. If fans want to support a creator, even if someone at Patreon disagrees with them, that doesn’t prevent them from using the platform.
We have successful creators across the political spectrum.
Unlike ad-based platforms, where advertisers dictate what is acceptable, our Patreon model empowers creators to thrive without compromising their voice to fit what’s “advertiser-friendly.”
Why does creator-first policy matter in content moderation?
Thomas: These big corporations can bully platforms into suppressing speech they don’t like. I remember a video that made fun of Vegemite, which is a popular food in Australia. It was an American guy tasting it, and he got super sick; it was hilarious. The video had millions of views, but it was terrible for the Vegemite brand, and eventually, the video was taken down.
I don’t know if it’s back up, this was years ago, but I remember the takedown said it violated the terms of service. I thought, “What did this guy do wrong? Who owns the copyright?” It didn’t make sense.
But from YouTube’s perspective, their relationship with Vegemite the corporation was more valuable than their relationship with some random creator making a funny video. That’s why I really appreciate the creator-first philosophy. Just because Patreon is based in San Francisco doesn’t mean everyone has to agree politically. Back in the day, Twitter called itself the “free speech wing of the free speech party.” The idea was to let speech happen, and the truth would rise to the top. That’s one thing I really like about Patreon.
Now, to be fair, Kickstarter has gotten a lot better, but in the early days, I had some clients run into issues. For example, Mary DeMuth had her Kickstarter campaign rejected. It was a book about overcoming sexual assault and abuse. Kickstarter classified it as “self-help,” and that didn’t meet their artistic standards.
They basically said, “This isn’t artistic enough,” which felt ridiculous. She ended up using Indiegogo instead, which was much more laid-back. Indiegogo felt more like Patreon, where people can support you if they want to. You’re not forcing anyone to buy something or support a creator they don’t like. It’s ultimately up to the patrons.
Bremner: It’s important to realize that Patreon doesn’t invest in discoverability. We’re not pushing specific creators to fans based on who they already follow. Our platform is built around creators engaging directly with their fan base.
In fact, 20-80% of fans join Patreon because a creator invited them. We don’t go out recruiting patrons on behalf of creators. We simply provide the infrastructure for creators to build those relationships themselves.
That “creator-first” idea is central to our business. Patreon was founded by a creator who saw a problem in the market. He remains our chief creator and helps us build better tools and products that prioritize creators, not third parties or advertisers. Other platforms often end up beholden to different stakeholders. We don’t want to be in that position.
What is Patreon building next?
Thomas: He who pays the piper calls the tune, and when you’re the piper, you care a lot about who’s paying you.
What is Patreon working on in 2018?
Bremner: First, we know there’s a lot of cost and time involved in fulfilling membership benefits. We want to reduce that so creators can offer more compelling rewards to their fans.
That includes building more advanced fulfillment tools like a better CRM so creators can track what’s owed to patrons on a recurring basis. That tool, called Fulfillment Manager, is currently in beta. It’s a robust CRM, and we hope to automate more of those functions to streamline delivery.
Second, we’re focusing on merchandise. It’s one of the highest fulfillment costs for creators. We’re investing in ways to make merchandise more affordable to offer, and to allow time-based rewards, like staying for six months to get an exclusive T-shirt, or for two years to receive a custom CD. Those long-term benefits encourage retention.
Third, we’re expanding our platform capabilities. About a year ago, we released a platform API, which allows Patreon to integrate with other platforms. There are now about 30 different apps built on top of our API, including livestream tools and Mailchimp. For example, you can build custom mailing lists based on patron data.
Our goal is for Patreon to fade into the background and allow creators to manage their memberships wherever they engage fans.
We also just launched a new video tool called Lens. It’s like a private Snapchat where creators can share short-term video content (available for 24 hours) with a specific segment of their audience.
Finally, we’re investing in our infrastructure. We now process a huge volume of payments each year, so we’re hiring more engineers focused on billing, infrastructure, and system robustness. Scaling from zero to hundreds of millions of dollars in transactions gets complex fast.
How is Patreon encouraging long-term support?
Thomas: I’m really excited about those retention features. One challenge with rewards like Q&A episodes is that, over time, fans tend to ask the same questions again and again. So the perceived value of that benefit decreases.
Having something like an exclusive T-shirt for patrons who stay a year is a great way to counterbalance that. Even if the Q&A becomes repetitive, new fans still want those answers, and you can continue engaging them. Meanwhile, long-term rewards keep veteran fans interested and rewarded.
Bremner: At a high level, we’ve organized our product teams around three big questions:
- How do we help creators acquire patrons?
- How do we help them retain patrons?
- How do we help them increase subscription revenue through higher-tier benefits?
We’re constantly studying what creators are doing well, so we can productize those successes. We’re also identifying areas where they struggle and working to reduce friction or cost in offering benefits.
My team focuses on consulting and engaging with creators, learning what works, and then scaling that knowledge across our platform. We’re investing in creator success, marketing, webinars, tutorials, and everything needed to help creators succeed on Patreon.
It might not all be product, but it’s all in service of helping creators grow and thrive.
Links: Creative Funding Show’s Patreon Affiliate Link
About Bremner
Bremner Morris is the Head of Patreon’s Creator Partnerships and Creator Success teams focused on helping creators develop their membership strategies. Bremner spends his days consulting with creators on their membership businesses as well as providing key insights from creators to Patreon’s leadership team.
Before joining Patreon, Bremner lead Business Development, Partnerships and Operations at AppDirect, a technology company that provided the commerce infrastructure for software vendors to launch and scale their subscription business. Bremner brings similar consulting frameworks from AppDirect to the content and creator membership/subscription space. Bremner lives in San Francisco and is a cyclist, runner and mediocre drummer.